Technical Specs of iPhone 3G posted

David Moyer <meetme@world.com> wrote in news:meetme-748065.21463512062008
@n003-000-000-000.static.ge.com:

> you wouldn't need GPS in that situation, the iPhone is smart enough to
> use WPS when it is needed. (like your example)
>
>

Geez, Iphone may be the answer to ship navigation!

Todd Allcock <elecconnec@AmericaOnLine.com> wrote in
news:g2tr0m$l3b$1@aioe.org:

> My Nemerix-based iBlue BT GPS does a pretty good job indoors- the
> first GPS I ever owned that worked inside my house.
>
>

Do you live in an RF transparent house? Wood is transparent, but
attenuates the signals. Metal is not. Concrete is not, eliminating good
fixes in all big buildings, malls, stores, public places, etc.

I get a great fix by sitting the Nokia BT GPS puck near a window, but the
fix is only marginal because the only GPS it can see are the ones in the
direction of the window AND the REFLECTED SIGNALS from all the ones it
can't the other ways. So, as the reflection paths change around, it
wanders all over the place up to about 300-400 ft, rendering its fix more
useless.

This isn't about EQUIPMENT....this is about PHYSICS, the PHYSICS of RF
PROPAGATION.

.....and there are other considerations using a very low level GPS in a very
active RF environment most of you live in...the city. Even the very
Sellphone you're wearing is a threat to GPS accuracy:
http://www.stk.com/downloads/support...e/pdfs/whitePa
pers/Crowded_streets_spectrum_ION.pdf

REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT

Dennis Ferguson <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in
news:slrng55aup.4m.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com:

> The network could provide
> cold start information so you don't have to wait for a few minutes
> for the phone to find satellites when it has lost its almanac or been
> moved a long way when turned off.

Modern GPS receivers lockup from a cold start in about a minute, at most.
This isn't an issue in a RUNNING sellphone you're NOT going to shut down,
drive 500 miles, then turn back on, over and over. The "Network" doesn't
exist to provide this information. The GPS birds, themselves, provide this
information about the constellation's status and which birds are useful in
their overriding data timing streams.

http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf
REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT

Dennis Ferguson <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in
news:slrng55aup.4m.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com:

> There's a lot of interesting possibilities for this, though what
> Apple means by "Assisted GPS" is ambiguous until they explain the
> details.
>
> Dennis Ferguson
>
>

They'll never reveal what they meant because it's jibberish. Look closely
at the case of this gadget and you'll see it has no place for a GPS
antenna.

Ron <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> wrote in
news:tpc554hbtcdddhvqp3ceepomjekg7o942g@4ax.com:

> http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/gps.html

"But if you’re inside — without a clear line of sight to a GPS satellite —
iPhone finds you via Wi-Fi. If you’re not in range of a Wi-Fi hot spot,
iPhone finds you using cellular towers."

Would ANYONE who has a GPS data stream pouring out of ANY wifi hotspot that
can pinpoint an iphoney please stand up!

The only thing it MAY know is the street address of the IP of the hotspot.
Is that what he's talking about?? Google knows I'm in Charleston, SC. I
suppose Knology knows where my modem IP is located to my address in some
database. Does APPLE have ACCESS to my IP's exact location? If so, we
have a WHOLE OTHER ISSUE to discuss here. How does Apple get this IP
information and who the hell is giving it to them?!!

Maybe it's only ATT hotspots. If so, you'll never find yourself with them
where I live...they only exist in tiny spots way to far apart.

nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid> wrote in news:120620081812490585%
nospam@nospam.invalid:

> that's where the assistance from the cellular network comes into play.
> you were paying attention, right?
>
>>

REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT. SHOW ME THE REFERENCE DOCUMENTS ON GPS
INFORMATION FROM THE CELLULAR NETWORK. FCC knows what the lat/long of
every cell tower is from the license, but that doesn't pinpoint an iPhone
walking down Broadway in NYC in a canyon of buildings on Times Square.

LET'S SEE THE REFERENCES....THE REFERENCE DOCUMENTS, NOT STEVIE JOBS'
SALESMAN WEBPAGES.

DevilsPGD <spam_narf_spam@crazyhat.net> wrote in
news:h7i35490g9rksj9f1ckqk5ng85mq052fm8@4ax.com:

> In message <Xns9ABBD467BFB90noonehomecom@208.49.80.253> Larry
> <noone@home.com> wrote:
>
>>THIS is why Sellphone GPS simply isn't going to work in your pocket
>>anywhere you happen to be.....THAT IS A PURE FANTASY!
>
> The QStar BT-1000 GPS I have works fine in my backpack, or in my pocket.
>
> Why couldn't a cell phone do the same?
>

It can....OUTDOORS. Sellphones are rarely used OUTDOORS. Sellphones are
used in the building canyons of the cities. Take your Qstar to downtown
any city and watch the fix. Just stand still in one spot and see how far
it wanders.

"The Bob" <nospam@bob.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9ABAB3B07C024bob@216.196.97.136...
> Ron <ronclifford@peoplepc.com> amazed us all with the following in
> news:bq3054h7sas48slso0k5o9an4af5p6lcnr@4ax.com:
>
> > http://www.apple.com/iphone/specs.html
>
> I see they won't be touting battery life as a big draw. They still limit
> the phone in choice of audio and video formats. And it still doen't have
> true GPS. Average camera at best with no video recording. No card slot.
> And no western skiing for the iPhone user (maximum operating altitude
> 10,000 ft.). Looks like a mediocre feature offering at best.

"10,000 ft?" That means there might be iPhone holding stations on Pikes
Peak where you can leave your iPhone while you drive up to the top and then
get your iPhone on your way back down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pikes_Peak

It also says: "Operating temperature: 32° to 95° F" so even if a Skier could
find a mountain less than 10,000 feet they would have to ski when it was
above freezing too.

At least they put "Bluetooth 2.0 + EDR" on it so it might work with Stereo
Bluetooth headsets.

On 2008-06-13, Larry <noone@home.com> wrote:
> Dennis Ferguson <dcferguson@pacbell.net> wrote in
> news:slrng55aup.4m.dcferguson@akit-ferguson.com:
>
>> The network could provide
>> cold start information so you don't have to wait for a few minutes
>> for the phone to find satellites when it has lost its almanac or been
>> moved a long way when turned off.
>
> Modern GPS receivers lockup from a cold start in about a minute, at most.
> This isn't an issue in a RUNNING sellphone you're NOT going to shut down,
> drive 500 miles, then turn back on, over and over. The "Network" doesn't
> exist to provide this information. The GPS birds, themselves, provide this
> information about the constellation's status and which birds are useful in
> their overriding data timing streams.

A minute sounds about right if you have good signals. You need to
do a trial-and-error search for code phase and Doppler frequency, and
then download the satellite position information at 50 bits/second, with
a full message taking 18 seconds to arrive if you manage to get it all
error-free the first time through. So you can wait the minute or so to
determine all this on your own, or you can have the network send you the few
hundred bytes worth of the exact same data and be up and running in a few
seconds. And satellite acquistion requires 20 dB higher signal levels
than does tracking satellites once you've found them, so the assist may
also get you up in places where the receiver would remain searching
forever.

Now you might not turn off your phone during your 500 mile drives, but
you do exactly that if you fly instead. More than this, you seem to be
assuming that the GPS will track satellites whenever the phone is on,
whether the phone's owner actually wants to know where he is or not. You
certainly might want to do that if it might take a minute and 20 dB excess
signal to get a new position fix, but if you can guarantee the time to
first fix will only be a few seconds why would you bother? You could
instead leave the GPS receiver off when no one is looking, saving the
battery, and only turn it back on when the user really wants to know
where he is. Then people who mostly hang around close to home, but
might travel somewhere where they need some help every week or so,
would only need to run the receiver every week or so.

> http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pubs/gps/sigspec/gpssps1.pdf
> REFERENCES NOT BULLSHIT

http://www.google.com/search?q=assisted+GPS+ttff

Dennis Ferguson

At 13 Jun 2008 23:53:06 +0000 Larry wrote:

> "But if you’re inside — without a clear line of sight to a GPS satellite —

> iPhone finds you via Wi-Fi. If you’re not in range of a Wi-Fi hot spot,
> iPhone finds you using cellular towers."
>
> Would ANYONE who has a GPS data stream pouring out of ANY wifi
> hotspot that can pinpoint an iphoney please stand up!
>
> The only thing it MAY know is the street address of the IP of the
hotspot.
> Is that what he's talking about?? Google knows I'm in Charleston, SC. I
> suppose Knology knows where my modem IP is located to my address in some
> database. Does APPLE have ACCESS to my IP's exact location? If so,we
> have a WHOLE OTHER ISSUE to discuss here. How does Apple get this IP
> information and who the hell is giving it to them?!!


That's up to the WiFi positioning service provider. With Navizon, it's
community supplied- users with "real" GPS-enabled phones running Navizon
software continually log the location of WiFi APs and cell towers and
transmit the logs to Navizon servers (and get paid by Navizon for their
efforts- $20 per 10000 "points"- APs and cell towers are each worth somany
points based on whether they've been logged before) while non-GPS phone
users can use the Navizon navigation software for free or buy the "virtual
GPS" software for $25 to convert the WiFi and tower location info intoa
simulated NMEA (GPS) data stream on a virtual COM port so third-party GPS
software "thinks" the device is GPS enabled.

> Maybe it's only ATT hotspots. If so, you'll never find yourself with
them
> where I live...they only exist in tiny spots way to far apart.

No, more than likely the iPhones with GPS will log APs and towers Navizon-
style to create a continually updated communal database for all iPhones to
share.